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themostepotenteI've been thinking a lot about the time turner and am wondering if there is a similar device that allows travel into the future? Of course there is the argument that since the future hasn't occured yet, how can one travel ahead? But this is fiction, so I suppose we're allowed some leeway?
I've always loved the idea of time travel. The past, the future, matters not. Just the idea of being able to travel backwards or forwards in time is fascinating to me. I'd be very interested to see a brief glimpse into the future, however, and how the characters develop. I have conjured this image in my mind of a post-apocalyptic setting after the War where things aren't so easily put right by magic.
I'm thinking there has to be some correlation between magic and quantum physics, although I'm fairly certain that Rowling didn't go and research Hawking. But at least she had the sense to consider paradoxes, and well, the same matter can never occupy the same space.
Basic theory is that space-time is a four-dimensional construct. A four-dimensional 'worm', whose ends represent the events of your birth and death, is what your life forms in space-time. An object, seen any instant, is a three-dimensional cross section of this worm. The line along which the object lies (ignoring its thickness) is that object's worldline. At any point, the angle your worldline makes with the time axis is a measure of your speed.
Relativity requires that worldlines be timelike. Massive objects distort space-time and bend worldlines. Suppose space-time becomes so distorted so that some worldlines form closed loops. These worldlines would be timelike all around. Locally, they would have all the properties of space and time, but yet they would be corridors of the past. This construct is called a closed timelike curve (CTC). By following a CTC, theoretically we could meet ourselves in the past, or if the loop were large enough, visit our ancestors. How this would allow time travel into the future is frankly, beyond my feeble comprehension :P
I think the time turner was a wonderful plot device though, and one has to wonder now that Harry knows of its existence, how often he considers getting his hands on one. It's really opened up the door for writers to explore an AU with characters that Rowling has killed off without the time period constrictions. So much to explore here, and the possibilities are limitless, really.
So that brings me here. What are everyone's thoughts on time travel and time turners?
Do you have any time travel fics to rec?
--P
I've always loved the idea of time travel. The past, the future, matters not. Just the idea of being able to travel backwards or forwards in time is fascinating to me. I'd be very interested to see a brief glimpse into the future, however, and how the characters develop. I have conjured this image in my mind of a post-apocalyptic setting after the War where things aren't so easily put right by magic.
I'm thinking there has to be some correlation between magic and quantum physics, although I'm fairly certain that Rowling didn't go and research Hawking. But at least she had the sense to consider paradoxes, and well, the same matter can never occupy the same space.
Basic theory is that space-time is a four-dimensional construct. A four-dimensional 'worm', whose ends represent the events of your birth and death, is what your life forms in space-time. An object, seen any instant, is a three-dimensional cross section of this worm. The line along which the object lies (ignoring its thickness) is that object's worldline. At any point, the angle your worldline makes with the time axis is a measure of your speed.
Relativity requires that worldlines be timelike. Massive objects distort space-time and bend worldlines. Suppose space-time becomes so distorted so that some worldlines form closed loops. These worldlines would be timelike all around. Locally, they would have all the properties of space and time, but yet they would be corridors of the past. This construct is called a closed timelike curve (CTC). By following a CTC, theoretically we could meet ourselves in the past, or if the loop were large enough, visit our ancestors. How this would allow time travel into the future is frankly, beyond my feeble comprehension :P
I think the time turner was a wonderful plot device though, and one has to wonder now that Harry knows of its existence, how often he considers getting his hands on one. It's really opened up the door for writers to explore an AU with characters that Rowling has killed off without the time period constrictions. So much to explore here, and the possibilities are limitless, really.
So that brings me here. What are everyone's thoughts on time travel and time turners?
Do you have any time travel fics to rec?
--P
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no subject
Date: 2005-03-22 06:09 pm (UTC)For present!Harry to go back in time, future!Harry must have already done it for it to be possible, meaning that the future has already happened.
I'm not sure I've explained this very well. It hurts my brain to think about it for too long, really... gah...
no subject
Date: 2005-03-22 06:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-03-22 06:43 pm (UTC)Have you seen this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/painless_j/55556.html) list? It's got quite a lot of good fics on it. I particularly recommend Broken Fate (http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Qwi_Xux/Broken_Fate/).
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Date: 2005-03-22 07:09 pm (UTC)There are arguments to both sides. Realistically, I wouldn't think you could, but I'm allowing for scientific leniency since we are doing with fantasy here.
Leave it to
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Date: 2005-03-22 07:22 pm (UTC)And no problem on the link -
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Date: 2005-03-22 09:06 pm (UTC)I will definitely give your rec a look. Thanks again!
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Date: 2005-03-22 08:05 pm (UTC)Surely if the time turners powers were greater Voldemort or the Order would have gone back in time and attempted to finish things one way or another.
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Date: 2005-03-22 09:02 pm (UTC)That aside, I think that's too much power in the hands of someone so young.
You make a very interesting point about the length of time you're allowed to travel back through, Dan. If that were true, it would explain the bridge of trust.
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Date: 2005-03-22 09:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-03-22 08:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-03-22 09:05 pm (UTC)Was a description of the time turner given in book three?
I've always saw it working more like an hourglass in my head.
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Date: 2005-03-23 08:41 am (UTC)If you went there just to look and saw something really horrible, though, that would be good excuse to try to change it when you got back.
If you lost your time turner in the future, there'd be no way to get back.
If you time turner yourself into the future, have you grown older, too? You might be dead! I could see Harry wanting to know what happened . . . People assume that if you go into the past, you don't get younger or disappear.
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Date: 2005-03-22 08:49 pm (UTC)email me please
right, nothing useful otherwise
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Date: 2005-03-22 09:10 pm (UTC)And contribute to the discussion, woman!
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Date: 2005-03-22 10:24 pm (UTC)Actually you can't 'time travel'. Time is invarient, so not someplace you can travel to and from. The theory is that one could possibly travel in the multiverse that may take place at a earlier or future period.
As far as going into the future and coming back to the present to help someone 'avert future disaster' is, of course, impossible. The multiverse is affected only at the point we make a decision or action. The multiverse you may have visited in the future might have the same players, but can not be the same multiverse that will be created when the person you intend to help with your information makes his/her decisions. In other words, you can not influence that persons future in his present multiverse and most certainly not the 'future' multiverse you happened to visit. Sorry if this sounds confusing; its kind of a difficult concept to discuss in an LJ post :-)
But at least she had the sense to consider paradoxes
Sorry, she didn't. Paradoxes do NOT exist. Period. Again, space here is a bit limited to discuss this, but if you are really interested I can recommend a couple of good books.
no subject
Date: 2005-03-22 11:07 pm (UTC)First and foremost, I guess I should start by saying I'm not a physics major. I'm pre-med, so I don't profess to be an expert in either temporal mechanics or quantum physics.
I think I'd be interested in discussing this at length over email if you are so inclined. ThePureblooded@aol.com.
For now, what books would you recommend? I've read 'A Brief History of Time.'
Just out of curiosity, are you a physics major?
--P
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Date: 2005-03-23 12:10 am (UTC)Just out of curiosity, are you a physics major?
*laughs* No, I actually have a masters in finance. I am totally into physics though, and believe completely in the concept of the multiverse. Einstein actually is the one that proved this concept of reality, however, he thought his theories were flawed because he couldn't accept that vision of reality.
A good book to start with would be 'The Fabric of Reality' by David Deutsch. It is written as close to 'laymens terms' as any physics book I have ever read. I find Hawkings difficult to read, and have two of his books sitting on the shelf that I keep promising myself I'm going to make the effort to finish.
Sure, would love to discuss per e-mail! I have always kind of thought of things like apparation and disapperation as a form of multiverse travel, though I am not sure one could make that jive with reality.
I'm also available at allzugern@livejournal.com or allzugern@yahoo.com
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Date: 2005-03-23 04:01 pm (UTC)I've always been under the assumption that apparation (like teleportation) is instantaneous. How would that compare with multiverse travel?
Apparation, to me, has always been similar in principle to transporting -- taken apart and pieced back together on a molecular level.
Friended you btw :-)
no subject
Date: 2005-03-23 12:42 am (UTC)That's only if you subscribe to the many-worlds theory being the only way with which to accomplish time travel (which I do, but for the sake of argument, let's say I don't).
One could subscribe to Gödel's CTCs as being a possible if not plausible method of time travel -- punch holes in the Universe and space-time travel becomes possible; apply Visser's words on Roman rings (a configuration of n black holes in a polygonal formation acting as a time machine and ignore his caveats about it not being a flaw in classical quantum gravity theory) and Bob's your uncle. In the same universe, no less.
Granted, such a solution is practically impossible and ignores Occam's Razor wrt. the many-worlds theory, but this is magic we're talking about. ;) And to stave off paradoxes, one could also throw in Novikov's self-consistency principle, which along with Thorne's calculations seem to indicate that large masses passing through wormholes for purposes of time travel could never produce paradoxes (i.e. once time travel is brought into the picture, conditions generating paradoxes could not be introduced).
Anyway. Gödel and multiverses aside, I take Hawking's expansion of the Fermi paradox, i.e. that we haven't had chrononauts from the future visiting us is the strongest proof that time travel is impossible, at least in large numbers. And I better stop before I babble all day...
(Disclaimer: IANAP; astrophysics, not quantum mechanics, is my darling.)
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Date: 2005-03-23 01:19 am (UTC)Yes, I suppose it depends on which theory you subscribe to. I would have to make a disclamer myself, as I am into quantum mechanics and have never had serious interest in astrophysics. This is partly the reason that I have trouble getting through the Hawking books, though it is all connected. That and I suppose my personal opinion that the uniqueness theory rules and we are indeed alone in the universe(s).
could babble all day about it myself ;-)
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Date: 2005-03-23 01:39 am (UTC)As for the Hawking books, at least A Brief History is getting to the point where it has more value as a document of scientific history, rather than as an accurate portrayal of how today's cosmological theories understand the structure of the universe. Well, re WMAP data and ever-expanding vs. expanding-contracting universe models, at least. I haven't read any of the new printings of the book, though.
Being a mathematician (well, applied math), I'm far more interested in Gödel's incompleteness theorem than in his yammerings about the structure of the universe. And I do subscribe to the many-worlds theory as being the most viable way of enabling time travel, but who knows -- maybe magic works in Gödelian ways. It seems to be fine disregarding the First Law of Thermodynamics, too. ;)
Second section
Date: 2005-03-23 01:09 pm (UTC)You know, while QM is one of my passions, I am by no means an expert and although I am a number cruncher (finance), I am no mathematician either. I understand the theory, but am not particularly adept at doing the higher calculations.
I have A Brief History and Black Holes and baby Universes and other Essays. I have promised myself to try and read at least one during the Easter holiday. Everyone raves about Hawking, I don't know why it is I have trouble reading his work.
In my head I seem to have the need to justify the magical world in terms of what I consider to be realistic. That sounds crazy, I guess, but I don't think it's much different than my need for fanfiction to be realistic as far as the characters are concerned. For example, If Severus starts calling Harry luv and Harry calls Severus Sev I'm outta there. So when people write fanfic where a time turner is used in a way that is completely inconsistant with the principles of QM -- someone goes into the past and kills Voldemort, or worse yet becomes Voldemort, in order to change the future, I roll my eyes and move on to the next fic.
Actually, I really think use of a time turner should be part of the warnings right up there with BDSM, Chan and non-con. Then I could decide right away if I wanted to take the chance of reading a good story, only to have it ruined two thirds of the way in when the author introduces a time turner. There are some writers out there that could do a really great job with this topic, but I'd rather not be surprised. Yes, I'm kind of kidding here, but...well, one can dream ;-)
maybe magic works in Goedelian ways. It seems to be fine disregarding the First Law of Thermodynamics, too
Gödel's IT is applicable to almost everything...though I think I draw the line at the implication that his theory shows that you will never entirely understand yourself, since the mind, as a closed system, can only be sure of what it knows about itself by relying on what it knows about itself. I am curious, though, why you think that Magic disregards the First Law of Thermodynamics. I see no reason why a magical world would violate that law.
Re: Second section
Date: 2005-03-23 04:30 pm (UTC)Stephen Hawking is a lot like Tolkien in the same respects. It took me MONTHS to read through the Silmarillion. Some people just find the 'voice' too, oh what's the word I'm looking for? Dry? Stilted? I'm at a loss, really.
A Brief History of Time is definitely worth your efforts, though.
Re: Second section
Date: 2005-03-23 09:52 pm (UTC)Yes! That's it, stilted. I read large quantities of theoretical physics material as well as technical medical journals so I was puzzled why Hawking was such a challenge for me - now I realise that yes, it's his 'voice' that I can't get comfortable with.
Due to the time difference, I am, once again, reading your mail during morning work hours. Since I have to get back to doing the thinking that brings home the bacon, I'll mail you later with some other thoughts; I had several of them with regard to the magical world and physics while I was 'talking' to
Re: Second section
Date: 2005-03-25 04:46 pm (UTC)okay, work over, I'm back :-)
Date: 2005-03-23 12:30 pm (UTC)The laws of quantum mechanics impose extreme restrictions on which pathways in the multiverse can be connected. The pathways being what is traveled, and not time, although the pathway may be either future or past directed.
It can be argued that Einstein's equations predict that past directed travel would be possible in the vicinity of massive, spinning objects and black holes definitely qualify. Although no satisfactory quantum theory of gravity exists, Deutsch points out that typical candidate versions of such a theory not only allow past-directed connections to exist in the multiverse, they predict that such connections are continually forming and breaking spontaneously. According to him, the typical pathway formed by such effects is about 10 to the -35 metres across, remains open for one Planck time and so only reaches on Planck time into the past.
Future-directed travel a less complicated in terms of actualization technically, but since I've blabbered on and on I'll spare you the details, as I'm sure, with you being into Astrophysics, you already know. :-)
Gödel's theories don't have any negative effect on the multiverse POV (well at least as far as I can see) and his Incompleteness theorem in particular is as brilliant as it is obvious. Because of it we know that there will never be a fixed method of determining whether a mathematical proposition is true. It proves that progress in mathematics will always rely on creativity (this is very important in relation to the knowledge paradox that quantum theory rules out).
So all that babbled, how does that all relate to magic?
*moves down to your next comment*
Re: okay, work over, I'm back :-)
Date: 2005-03-30 05:10 am (UTC)Actually, quantum mechanics, with its parallel universes and the quantum concept of time, does not rule out, in theory, the use of black holes to achieve travel along multiverse pathways. What it does rule out, is any kind of paradox (time, grandfather, or knowledge).
True indeed, and I was not contesting the possibility of time travel in multiverses vs. Gödelian universes -- only that it's possible to have time travel methods that could introduce paradoxes, i.e. methods that do not rely on the many-world paradigm to accomplish time travel.
This, of course, doesn't answer the question of whether time travel is possible or not in terms of practicalities (and considering it involves the rearrangement of black holes in possibly unsuccessful attempts at making the connection stable, I'd say it's mighty hard); it's a question of theoretical possibility. Nor does it take any stance on the plausibility of either the multiverse or Gödelian universe theories. Me, I do believe in the many-worlds idea, but AFAIK it's still a mere conjecture, not a theorem; hence, any propositions using it should be prefaced with an "assuming the multiverse theory is true, [...]" disclaimer.
Does that make any sense? I mean, my original contention was that you said "Paradoxes do NOT exist. Period.", yet that's only true if one assumes the multiverse theory is a) true, b) the only method of time travel available. Or am I completely off the mark here?
As for my issues with magic contradicting Laws of Thermodynamics, that's more tongue-in-cheek than anything else. :) But yeah... flying brooms with no obvious source of energy? First Law says "boink!" Reparo and memories in the Pensieve? Second Law says "fuhgeddaboutit!"
no subject
Date: 2005-03-23 04:15 pm (UTC)How do we know we haven't though? Look at Roswell -- perfect example. We are so being misled there. And why? The mass hysteria alone...
Goddess, I love conspiracy theories.
Oh, and babble on, dear. *G* I always love reading your posts.
no subject
Date: 2005-03-30 05:17 am (UTC)Mwah! :) I have deep love for X-Files and conspiracy theories, but I do think my love for Occam's Razor does trump these tendencies on most occasions... as it happens, the question of extra-terrestrial life is what the Fermi paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox) attempts to answer.
Me, to believe in either chrononauts and little green men, I do need more data. I mean, I don't need to witness them myself, but I do need information and evidence... I don't need to go into space to believe it's black, because the physics of it make sense and there have been many independent verifiers and photographers who've said that yes, it is indeed black. Same with aliens. And time travellers.
(This doesn't detract from the fun of conspiracy theories, however. They make great brain fodder. ;)
no subject
Date: 2005-03-22 11:36 pm (UTC)I noticed in PoA that apparently the FIRST-mentioned future Harry and Hermione didn't successfully release Buckbeak, because he died the first time around. There WAS at least an attempt to free him, though, because of the rocks being thrown into Hagrid's hut and (present)Hermione hearing the snapping of twigs behind her. I used the phrase "FIRST-mentioned" future H&H because it's possible that this was a long loop that happened until they got it just right. Buckbeak was being stubborn in the final attempt, but this time they finally lured him to safety.
Oh, one note on my first paragraph, I guess...
Date: 2005-03-22 11:40 pm (UTC)