Snack -- Vive le grudgefuck!

[themostepotente]

Well...

I just finished my second Snack -- 3000k. I'm quite pleased. The first one I actually wrote -- brilliant plan of action, executed poorly. I must go back and fix one of these days.

I love this pairing for a multitude of reasons;

They hate eachother.

They really hate eachother.

They really, really hate eachother.

So to all the gifted Snack writers -- amanuensis1, cluegirl, ellen_fremedon, fabularasa, isiscolo...

What is the key ingredient to writing this pairing and doing so convincingly?

IMHO, this is one, if not the most difficult slash pairings to pull off.

It's like...trying to snap a picture of your two-year old at Sears Portrait Studio :P

It's like...putting a pair of sunglasses and a big floppy hat on your dog, hoping he'll stay that way and strike a pose :P

They...just...won't...cooperate.

FYI -- I'd love to hear from everyone. If I have forgotten anyone that writes Snack in abundance, 'please' just give me a firm slap on the wrist, and I'll edit.

--P

Comments

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

I don't write Snack at all, but I have enjoyed Fab Rasa's and Ellen Fremedon's ( oh, how could you forget her!)

What makes this difficult pairing work is not just hate- or it is just nasty rape ( which can work too, if that is a kink that moves you). It's yearning it'sneed it's realising that that people aren't what you thought, its realising yopur life can end at any momnet and all you had was false illusions about the world. Believe it of not, these are the two most romantic characters in HP- and I mean Romantic in the style sense. Severus is a cruel- that heart he wears on his sleeve has been crushed one too many times. And Sirius has had to rot in jail, cut off from the world which he thought he had all figured out. VEry proud people, difficult people, yearning for a connection. Severus is strong enough, despite himself, to work with people that he loathes. And Sirius has his illusions shattered about who is what, and is very loyal to Harry. Combine that strength and the loyalty, plu sthe angst, and you have a great story.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Whattsamatta for you, Dana? You give me great name -- you no leave me linky.

Seriously, I'd love to check out ellen_fremedon's stuff. Anything you suggest?

About your theory -- what about before Sirius was shipped to Azkaban? Couldn't it be that Sirius is just a bully? He and James picked on Severus for no good reason. That's a bitter pill to swallow.

--P

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

Hey- big apologies!

And Sirius is a bully, no doubt. But he is a bully who has wasted his youth because of his stupid preconceptions of people ( Peter the biggest misconceptions of all) ANd if his other preconseptions weren't true, then what about ...

My thing though, withthis pairing, is while I can see Sirius wanting to at least tr with Severus, I have to see why ever Severus would want to with Sirius.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Now, I think it would be the other way around.

I can see Snape being into Black, but not Black being into Snape.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I'll leave you the linky. (http://www.geocities.com/ellen_fremedon) Each one of Ellen's fics is brilliant, but I suspect it'll be Slowly, but Exceeding Fine (http://geocities.com/ellen_fremedon/Slowly.html), her long Snape/Black one, which you'll most enjoy.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Wonderful -- thank you!

[titti]

I think most of the people that have done convincingly have either: a) returned to their school years and explain their intense dislike for each other;

Wait, there is no b. I think that's the trick proving that the tension was unrequitted or unacknowledges lust and somehow they are forced to reveal it.

There have been a few, very few exceptions of good fics where they are kinda of thrown together, but then the setting has to be really believable to justify them forgetting all their animosity.

THis from someone who has written a few and has read all of the ones I archive at Thin Line.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

School years, yes. The root of all evil. Where it began. I agree wholeheartedly with you there.

Lack of fanfiction -- see above. This is a difficult pairing to pull off. Pity too. It was my push into fandom.

--P

[titti]

I like to think that even though there isn't as much as H/D, the SS/SB are almost always worth reading, and you don't have to pull your hair when reading DracoSue and HarryStu.

[puppy-tenchan.livejournal.com]

I do not write Snape/Black, I play it, but the question as how to get them together stays the same in every genre. And actually, there are a lot of reasons why they could come together. The classical "It was just unreqited lust/love in their schooltimes, and now they realize it" and the just as classical "We are trapped/forced together by circumstances/persons and now must work it out" are just two. One of the main points that is between them, is the fact that they know each other close enough to hate since (at least!) their first schoolyear. I don't know if you have ever actively hated someone for 7 years, but it requires a deep comittment to the enmity and the enemy. You get to know your enemy quite good, you build up familiarity (even if its a negative one).
Sirius has gone through hell. (Rather literally, as many believe you are forced in hell to relive your most terrible moments over and over again. But I disgress.) When he comes out, the world has turned on without him and is now really busy with Voldemort. The last persons left, that are really familiar to him, are Remus and Severus. Even Harry only seems so close and familiar because he reminds Sirius of James. Now, between Remus and Snape, there's not much choice. And between Severus and Sirius, there's one thing lacking: disappointement. The disappointment of betrayal and distrust. Snape is still the same Snape Black knew before Azkaban. Can there be anything more comforting? It may sound perverse, but even hate can be comforting when it reminds you of a better past. This is another, valuable reason. Not something easy to write, but very interesting.

Now, before I really start to babble about my OTP: Always helpful in bringing them together is the use of subconscience and instinct and the playing with their (emotional and physical) needs.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

So true. It does take a deep commitment to hate this intensely. I cannot fathom holding a grudge or hating anyone that long.

I wish more people considered Snape/Black for their OTP. When it's done right, it's just so damned good.

[cluegirl.livejournal.com]

Well, when I did it for Morte O Merce, I fell back on basic psychology: What we hate in other people is what we find loathsome in ourselves. Ergo, the more you hate someone, the more you are really like them where it counts. Factor Snape and Black into that, strip away the things like a wealthy versus a poor upbringing, and the socialization of their school houses, and they really are quite similar. They're both cruel, they're both judgemental, they're both rash when angry, and then guilt ridden when they prove to have been wrong, they're both unforgiving, and they're both in love with their own intelligence.

So, having established what they each hate about each other, to build a relationship between them, all you have to do is find the GOOD points they have in common as well: Loyalty which, once given, is unswerving. Resourcefulness, resiliency, fierce honourability, coupled with a sneakiness which is very useful. Courage, adaptability, intelligence, and magical prowess.

All you have to do then is create a situation where the strengths they share can become more important than the weaknesses. Which is why Hurt/comfort works so well between those two. They will never be romantic, and they will never stop fighting, but that is because neither one of them will ever be really comfortable with their reflection. So as long as you keep the tension between them, it can be really satisfying.

So there: Clear as mud, right?

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I agree with this. The idea of "we're more alike than we realize" is very powerful.

I also think that it's important to show the hate, even in an established relationship fic. For example, in Fab's Misericorde, even though they were in a relationship, we see the prior hate through Harry's eyes. Without the acknowlegment of the conflict, established relationship fic in this pairing seems ridiculous.

Show the hate; show the realization of common ground; focus on the tension as they try to bring the two into harmony.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Established relationship with Snack can be done, but IMHO, it's nothing that can be satisfied in one PWP, or even one fic.

You have the best Snack icons, Isis.

You know what would be incredibly hot? A Snack collab with you and Cluegirl.

I think I'd cast you as Sirius and her as Snape.

You'll let me know if this ever comes to pass. *grins*

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Actually, dear -- what you say makes A LOT of sense.

You have such an incredible gift of theorizing. You explain things simply yet eloquently, and you never have a problem getting your point across.

And this, woman, is why you are my voice for Lucius Mlfoy. You make me see things I wouldn't normally see myself.

Which begs the question -- where were you my Freshman year for frickin' Algebra? I 'might' have passed with you at the helm :P

Morte O Merce was a phenomenal read, but I've probably told you that.

-P

[cluegirl.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I failed algebra too -- I'd have been no help at all, I'm afraid.
But thanks for the props. And I'm glad you liked MoM too.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Do I write Snack? *looks at website* Damn, I guess I do!

Geez, I guess I haven't thought about it too hard, but, besides some of the points the above people have made, I'd add:

1. "The opposite of hate isn't love--it's indifference." Easier to trade hate for love, easier to feel emotion so strong that you can't tell if it's hate or love.

2. Some of what I've written of Snack is non-con, and maybe that's a bit of a cheat, for what you're asking. ^_^

3. The Beatrice and Benedick syndrome. You take 2 people who hate each other, plant in the head of one that the reason the other is so hostile is because they actually are in love with their rival and are hiding it, and that person will become obsessed with that idea and then begin examining their own brain to see if they maybe feel differently, knowing that now, and wondering if it's been like that for them as well, all along.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Does she write Snack she asks? :P

I seem to recall a delicious fic in which you based off fiendling's 'Bed of Nails.'

And eh, so what if non-con is a bit of a cheat. Non-con is a kink of mine. Snack, when written well, is good in any form.

And well, Amy, you rock irregardless :-)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

*uses icon, grins, hugs you hard*

[ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com]

I've always found that antagonist-slash, Snape-Black included, is easier to write in some ways than buddy-slash, because it tends to generate its own plot. Ask yourself, What would have to happen for X and Y to get together, and by the time you've answered that question, you've got an outline.

About Snape/Black specifically-- one thing that relationship has going for it (from Snape's or Black's perspective) is that it really isn't possible for either of them to disappoint the other. They don't like each other, and they don't respect each other, and they don't care what the other thinks of them. In other words, there's nothing to lose. It's a risk-free relationship, in a way.

Which is pretty dismal, really, but for those two, I can really see them seeing it as a plus. And it means that there's nowhere for them to go but up.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

I've always found that antagonist-slash, Snape-Black included, is easier to write in some ways than buddy-slash, because it tends to generate its own plot.

Yes! This was one of the points made during the ConneXions panel on antagonistic pairings, and pretty much the reason I prefer antagonistic pairings. The plots are, to me, more interesting.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Yes! This was one of the points made during the ConneXions panel on antagonistic pairings, and pretty much the reason I prefer antagonistic pairings. The plots are, to me, more interesting.

A-fuckin'-men! Preach the slashy gospel!

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Oh hey! Thanks for popping on over here, Ellen.


About Snape/Black specifically-- one thing that relationship has going for it (from Snape's or Black's perspective) is that it really isn't possible for either of them to disappoint the other. They don't like each other, and they don't respect each other, and they don't care what the other thinks of them. In other words, there's nothing to lose. It's a risk-free relationship, in a way.

I agree with most of this, but I do think it's possible to respect your enemy. It's nothing I can see either man admitting, but I could see admiring tenacity secretly.

It's just a real bummer Sirius is no longer around for the ride down this bumpy road.

I've gone ahead and added you to the list. My apologies for not including you. Again, thanks for coming here and adding your thoughts :-)

--P

[ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm always happy to ramble incoherently about Snape pairings *g*.

And re: respect-- oh, yeah, I can see them coming to grudingly respect each other. I don't think that they ever got to that point in canon, though.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm always happy to ramble incoherently about Snape pairings *g*.

That being the case, you'll always have a home here :-)

Restituere

[aliciamasters.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to interrupt posts here, but I'm a new livejournal user, and am not sure if there is a better way to send you an email. I just saw the post you put on the restituere club, and I just wanted to thank you for all the work you put into your backstories. I love the variety of different characters on Restituere, and think you've done a wonderful job defining your character. Every story on there is so unique, and the authors do a wonderful job working together to keep each character consistent. I read Restituere every time I turn on my computer, and you are one of the reasons why. Thanks for all your hard work! It is appreciated!

A fellow Michigander

Re: Restituere

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

It's cool -- I've said my piece :-)

Where in Michigan are you from?

Re: Restituere

[aliciamasters.livejournal.com]

I'm from Ann Arbor, MI. Nice to know I'm not the only slash reader who can tell someone where they live by pointing to their hand!

[fabularasa.livejournal.com]

Oh gosh, I'm so sorry I didn't see this post sooner -- it really just slipped by me entirely. However, I've nothing really to add other than to strongly second some points made earlier, specifically isiscolo's point about antagonist-slash being a natural plot magnet. It's the basic human plot; it's why people still read Pride and Prejudice (and Much Ado About Nothing, as amanuensis1 points out). When I weave imaginative romantic scenarios in my head, whether about HP characters or the mailman, conflict is always the key element. I suppose you'd have to chalk that up to personality, really.

Also, I liked dphearson's point about these two characters being the most Romantic in the generic sense of the word. Of all the characters Rowling has created, not many are more than skillfully drawn caricatures. These two, I think, come the closest to being three-dimensional, complex human beings, so the temptation to throw them in the centrifuge and see what comes out is pretty strong. Because they exerted such a strong gravitational pull, I became convinced on first read that the conflict between them must somehow be at the heart of the plot as Rowling conceived it, and well, conflict leads to. . . see paragraph A.

All of which answers your question not a whit, does it? Because you wanted to know what's the key ingredient to writing this pairing well. I may not be well equipped to answer that, because I find it so hard to write anything else. I try, really, I do, but then inevitably one off them wanders into the room, and their presence is so strong that everything starts to revolve around them, and well. . . see paragraph B. But I would have to say that for me, the key is voice. If you don't hear their utterly distinctive voices in your head clear as day, then don't try it. I think any number of HP characters -- precisely because they are caricatures -- can be fudged; I mean, how intimately do I have to hear Ron's voice to write him and pull it off, really? But if I'm faking Snape or Sirius, it will show from a mile off. So dialogue is key for me, and that figures because my stories are pretty dialogue-driven.

And that leads me to my final point: talking. I want characters who can talk. I want characters who have things to say to each other -- complicated things, hard things, nasty things, whatever. I want characters with a history, and whose history weighs on their every word. I want talk to be freighted with meaning, to bleed meaning. So Snack is inevitable, for me.

In thinking about this I went back and looked at some of my stuff, to remind myself, and I counted 17 Snape/Blacks. Jeez. I have a problem. In my defence, though, lots of other people do get laid in my stories, so maybe it balances out. Kinda. In a way.

Re:

[herixeteia.livejournal.com]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMzgVshG6CI