Fandom Discussion and Poll: Snape and His Accursed Bloodline

[themostepotente]

sinick and I had a discussion not too long ago on Snape's bloodline and whether or not his bloodline was truly a secret.

I can buy that Dumbledore and McGonagall were privy to his familial bloodline, but anyone else? I think Snape being as unpopular as he was would have done just about anything to make certain his background was kept as secret as possible. It's been suggested that a lot of the kids sorted into Slytherin were actually half-bloods masquerading as pure-bloods to escape scrutiny or worse. This makes a lot of sense to me.

I guess the crux of our debate was whether or not Lucius knew Severus was a half-blood. I maintain that Lucius did not. I can't imagine Lucius would have had much to do with him otherwise, but then Lucius doesn't seem to mind that Voldemort isn't of pure blood.

sinick maintains that because pure-bloods are fewer in numbers than half-bloods and Muggle-borns, Lucius would be familiar with family names in conjunction with bloodlines. Goddess forbid, he would rub cocks noses with anyone of inferior status.

I must also stress that because Snape is an accomplished Occlumens, wouldn't he be able to keep his skeletons closeted? Well, maybe not from Voldemort. He, of course, is a skilled Legilimens.

Fuck, I'm confused :P

And while I'm on the subject of Snape's bloodline, there are ticky boxes to check regarding your thoughts...

[Poll #557878]

Lastly (I'm making this an essay style question :P), who might have been aware of Snape's bloodline? How did they come to find out?

--P

Comments

[elfflame]

I agree with you that Dumbledore and McGonagall would have known. But Lucius I'm not so sure about.

The thing I wonder? He's obviously proud of his mother's surname. And he definately seems to have hated his father. So why didn't he go by Severus Prince? I think there's something about that that would be looked on by some as even worse than simply being half-blood.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

That's a very good question. Maybe we'll find out in book seven.

Although...

Severus Snape is a bit more aesthetically pleasing than Severus Prince.

[iulia_linnea.livejournal.com]

Is it necessarily clear that Lucius knows about Voldemort being a half-blood?

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

I was wondering the same thing. When Harry told Bellatrix that Voldemort's father was a Muggle, she was rather distressed and screamed that Harry was lying. You have to wonder who among his followers really knew/knows the truth.

We don't even know what he told his classmates - almost certainly that his parents were dead, but we don't know that he told them he lived in a Muggle orphanage. I can't see him sharing personal information regardless. And really - he was left in the orphanage by his pureblood witch mother (though he thought it was his father who had been the powerful wizard at the time), so growing up in such a place would not necessarily mean he hadn't been a pureblood and taken in by ignorant muggles when his parents died. The headmaster and professors obviously knew, but...

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Lucius couldn't be that blonde :P

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

I think the Malfoys must have known. Narcissa knows where he lives, which comes as a shock to Bellatrix, who may be starting to suspect now she's seen.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Narcissa only knew because she and Snape were having lots of hawt secks.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is, I once wrote a pair of stories that involved Snape's mother being a Muggle, and was talked into scrapping them by a beta who insisted that canon was stacked against Snape being a half-blood. :-P

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Funnier still...

I wrote a story where Snape's father was not only a pure-blood but a Death Eater. Boy, was I way the fuck off :P

I still need a Snilch icon :(

[luckybrans.livejournal.com]

I think it might be known. Hermione makes a comment in HBP that both Harry and Ron could join the Death Eaters, but it's her they'd have a problem with. What I took from that was that the Death Eaters aren't as exclusive as some would think. There are so little purebloods left that its doubtful that the Death Eaters and their sympathizers are made up of only them.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I would think being a half-blood defeats the purpose of purification, but what the hell do I know? LOL!

[malefics.livejournal.com]

First: I think that to purebloods, the only real sin is to be Muggleborn. I know that Bellatrix uses "filthy halfblood" against Harry, but she not only really really REALLY hates Harry, she's also a fanatic who will not even believe that Voldemort isn't pureblooded. Hagrid says that -all- wizards alive today are halfblood or less, and which I imagine this is taking into account lineage over time, I think there are so few Purebloods left (explaining why they're so interbred) that you couldn't possibly make a House out of them. Salazar Slytherin seems to be fine with Halfbloods, if they have the right sort of mind. I imagine that other than in pure snobbishness, most Pureblood wizards (while shuddering to themselves about someone bedding a Muggle) really don't care that much about Halfbloods. So, while I imagine Snape probably wanted to keep his father's identity secret, since his Muggle nature was on file in the library, he was unlikely to have done a great job of it. Luckily, it wasn't something the Gryffindors were likely to insult him with.

Also, I have never seen anything in canon which leads me to believe Snape was unpopular among Slytherins. He was famous throughout the entire school for his brilliance in the Dark Arts, and in Potions- his Head of House's subject. He was one of Slughorn's favorites and hang out in the same group (when he wasn't off being a loner) as Bellatrix Black and the Lestranges.

*grins* Just my two cents, since this is a fun discussion.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Now see, I didn't get that he was popular -- even in Slytherin.

I have to wonder why his housemates didn't come to his rescue when James and Sirius hung him upside down. Every wizard for himself?

[mortifyd.livejournal.com]

I think the whole issue of being a half-blood is much less of a big deal than it's made out to be - remember our POV is Harry's. He's not only a bit self absorbed and thick, but he makes a lot of assumptions about what other people think and believe that aren't necessarily correct.

We don't really know anything about how they felt about bloodlines in the 70's when Snape was at school other than Snape calling Lily a "mudblood" - there is no mention of picking on "half-bloods" and Lily's Muggle heritage didn't seem to signifigantly bother many other people from what we know.

I think it was more a handy insult than any cultural bias against Muggleborns - look at Slughorn as an example. He adored Lily as a student - despite her being both Muggleborn and a Gryffindor - so the biases we see in Draco, Lucius and even Snape are not necessarily universal.

Voldemort's loathing of his mixed heritage is part of his psychosis - I'm not so sure it's an accurate view of the cultural POV either. Hagrid said that most "pureblood" families weren't actually pure in CoS anyway - and while he's not an absolute source either, I think it's not as big a deal as fandom assumes it is. It wasn't common knowledge or an issue that he was half giant, even after he left school - and he was part of Voldemort's generation at school - so students being hyperaware of bloodlines doesn't seem to be realistic.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I think it was more a handy insult than any cultural bias against Muggleborns - look at Slughorn as an example. He adored Lily as a student - despite her being both Muggleborn and a Gryffindor - so the biases we see in Draco, Lucius and even Snape are not necessarily universal.

Point taken, but I think given Lucius's attitude towards Muggle-borns, that in his case, it is cultural bias.

[xochiquetzl]

I actually had a conversation with my SO about a month before HBP came out. It kind of went like this:

Me: Hey, you know, if Snape was the half-blood prince, and his father was the muggle and an abusive prick, well, that would incline him to join an anti-muggle group, don't you think?
Him: The Death Eaters would never take halfbloods.
Me: Um, Voldemort is a halfblood.
Him: Yes, and no one knows about it. Look at Bella's reaction.
Me: Well, maybe no one knows but Voldemort, and he's sympathetic or something.
Him: Voldemort? Sympathetic?
Me: Maybe Voldemort doesn't know.
Him: Now you're just grasping at straws.

I must now mock the both of us because he talked me out of it. MOCK MOCK MOCK MOCK MOCK MOCK MOCK!!! ;)

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

That's so cool that you can have a conversation like that with your SO.

[cmere.livejournal.com]

I have no idea who might have been aware of Snape's bloodline because I also have no idea who is aware of Voldie's bloodline. I've thought about this before--why wouldn't Dumbledore get the word out that Voldie is a half-blood to all the DEs-in-training and such? Wouldn't they be bothered/disturbed/etc?

Though now I just went and read some other people's comments, and they say they don't think being a half-blood is as big of a deal as Harry makes it out to be, which makes sense to me. God, was it in a fic or was it in HBP (I hate that they blend together!) that Hermione or someone says to Ron and Harry "You're not muggleborn, they'd be happy to take either of you" and they come back with some snappy comments about being blood-traitors and the boy who lived. UNGH I really need to reread HBP a few thousand more times so I can keep my facts straight. And now I'm rambling. *walks away*

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

It was from HBP.

And you are way, WAY too young to be losing your memory like that, dear. *G*

'Course, I need to reread HBP too.

[cordelia_v]

I have to say that I side with Sinick on this one. The pureblood wizarding community is just not that large. That's why they all intermarry with each other, as Sirius observes to Harry (when he's explaining that Black family tapestry in book 5): there are so few of them, and they're all interrelated.

So, the "real" pureblood family names are going to be very common knowledge. And so someone could try to hide the fact that he had a Muggle (or Muggleborn) mother, perhaps, and get away with it. But a Muggle father means that your half-blood status will be given away to someone like Lucius, the second you introduce yourself. I just don't see how it could be otherwise, in such a small community.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

But would Lucius really be 'okay' with it?

It hasn't seemed to affect the Snape/Lucius pairing though.

[innerslytherin]

Well, I'm disappointed that Severus is a half-blood mostly because it didn't fit my image. However, it doesn't make me love him any less. In fact after a great deal of analysis I've decided the fact that his abusive father is a Muggle is a great justification for Severus' hatred of Muggles.

That said, I can see Lucius and Narcissa knowing. I don't know if Draco knows. I think Bella absolutely doesn't know; based on her reaction when Harry said Voldemort was a half-blood, I think that not only does she idolize Voldie, but she also thinks half-blood is as bad as Muggleborn. Dumbledore would certainly know. McGonagall...hm, probably, if only because she would have known Snape's mother. I suppose technically it might've been difficult for Severus to keep his parentage totally secret, but he certainly wouldn't have gone around talking about it. *nods*

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Well, Bella is definitely psychotic, that's for sure.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

I never thought he was pure blood. Too much self-hatred there.
Whether the Malfoys would have cared, if they knew... I doubt it. His attitude towards them (loyalty?), and their mutual social positions, were probably more important.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I don't think Narcissa would've cared. But Lucius? I could see him holding it over Snape's head. Bribery. Blackmail. That's right up Lucius's alley.

Nah, didn't think that he was pure blooded

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I remember actually doing a post (in someone else's LJ) that Snape was half-blood. Of course though, I was wrong in the sense of how it came about, but right in the end result.

He reminds me too much the light skinned black people who I know that deny their black side (my complexion is what? Naw, it's golden because I'm spanish *rolls eyes*) and totally identify with their white side. So, yeah, it didn't surprise me, I know (and am related to) too many self hating kneegros in my time, so the sentiment was familiar to me.

Does this post make sense?

Who would have known? Well... since half-bloodedness is not like say, a race, apart from the school Principal and Vice Principal knowing, I can't see Snape's background being the business of anyone else, which is probably why Snape worked so hard on his potions and hexes. Dazzle them with strong magic, you know, and be bitter towards Muggles so that people don't know that you're one. Yeah, I could see how he got away with it.

People don't look further than they can see.

Re: Nah, didn't think that he was pure blooded

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

That actually makes a lot of sense. I never really thought about it that way, but you are right.

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I didn't give it much thought -- there were 3845723 more important ponderings on Snape to deal with than his blood heritage, and seeing as Voldything is half-blood, I figured he could be either-or. If anything, I think I wrote him as pure-blood, but honestly, I can't remember if I ever made any reference to his blood heritage in any way.

I'm glad, nay delighted, to have it confirmed that he's half-n-half and that there is no Snape Manor, just that runty house on Spinner's End. Stabs noble-lord-of-the-manor Snape straight in the gonads, and gives him more personality. What a lovely pretentious fuckwit he is! Aw! *loves Snape*

As for the Malfoys knowing, can't say. My gut feeling points towards them knowing, if only because the WW is such a close-knit community.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Don't get me started on Snape Manor :P

Oh, and by the way, Pen? You are cute. *G*

[hilarita.livejournal.com]

Aware of Snape's bloodline. Dumbledore, certainly. Probably McGonagall, and any other staff members old enough to have been around the school (as either teacher or pupil) when Snape was there.
Lucius - Snape wouldn't have told him, as he was so much older he probably didn't have much to do with Snape at school. It depends on whether all the purebloods know the names of all the pureblood families. If so, then Snape's bloodline is an open secret. I incline to think that most pureblood families would be familiar with the majority of other pureblood lines, but that there were sufficient gaps in their knowledge to be able to say things like, 'Ah, but there was a cadet branch of the Wimblefloops who changed their name in the 1600s and I'm descended from them' or 'Ah, Snape is an anglicisation from a cadet branch of some random European pureblood family'.
I imagine the Marauders wouldn't know, otherwise they'd taunt him about it.
Voldemort would know, because Snape would probably tell him, as a cunning psychological move to show how purebloods needed to be able to lord it over Muggles appropriately.
Half-blood Slytherins probably know Snape's a half-blood, as he may have told them, in an effort to shove the house away from its unnatural obsession with bloodlines.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I like Wimblefloops. *G*

[kryptyd.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine why any reader would be disapointed that Snape is not a pure-blood. If possible it makes him even MORE facinating to me! Incidentally I saw someone yesterday on FAP who felt let down and disapointed that Snape didn't have a nice, big house! I know, I know, I shouldn't go there because I always end up coming back to lj and complaining about it...

This discussion about blood and how important it is shows me one thing though. I find it inconceivable, at this late stage, that JKR will be able to answer all of our questions in book 7. In a way I'm quite glad of that as I think it will give the fandom a longer lease of life to have grey areas to ponder and discuss.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I never imagines Snape with a nice, big house.

[huntress1013.livejournal.com]

I wasn't really surprised. I saw Sev either as a pureblood from an old black arts powerful family like Sirius but without the money or as a halfblood because his mother has married someone less favourable, so it was no shock and I still love my Sev yes I do....actually after HBP I love him even more.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Ditto on the loving him more.

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

In regards to the second question . . . I can't say it was a shock. I hadn't considered Snape's bloodline, really. It didn't bother me or anything, though. I thought it was interesting.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Anything about Snape, I've found, is interesting.

[sinick.livejournal.com]

Zero chance of Snape keeping it secret that he's got a muggle dad. Zilch. Zip. Nada.

Why? Because the Snape name comes from his Muggle dad.

The complete and total absence of any other witches or wizards, current or in the past, with the name of Snape would have to be a dead giveaway. Period.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Regardless, I think you like playing devil's advocate with me. *G*