Fandom Discussion: Book Smarts vs Street Smarts: Should book knowledge be mandatory in fic writing?

[themostepotente]

I can recall a time my freshman year in high school when in Advanced Placement English, we were each given a book assignment. Mine was Arthur Miller's 'The Crucible', and I can distinctly remember turning my nose up at it, thinking, 'there is NO fucking way in hell I'm reading this boring ass book.'

Luckily, I became acquainted with Cliff Notes, a publication intended for literary shortcuts. Cliff Notes provides you with a basic premise so that you have some idea of what a book's about. Unluckily for most, any teacher worth his/her salt will be able to see past that ruse, rewarding you with an unsatisfactory mark on your book report. Think it can't happen? My AP English teacher was Snape in polyester :P

Where in the fuck is Penny going with this? Well, I'll tell you.

You can only bullshit your way through fandom so far if you haven't read the books.

What boggles my mind is the amount of people I've run across lately that have not read through the books. Now, I'm not talking about the slower readers that haven't made it through HBP yet. I'm talking about the people who have either skimmed the series or have skipped it entirely and still continue to write fan fiction. It really begs the question; how does one properly lend voices to characters one knows nothing about?

I know that Prisoner of Azkaban was a pivotal point in the series for me, introducing both Sirius Black and Remus Lupin. I can't imagine trying to write either's voice skipping PoA and the next two books. Because Sirius Black was such an interesting character for me, I devoured every morsel of information given that would help me shape his written persona. I can safely argue that reading each book thoroughly has provided me with a deeper look into characterizations I couldn't find simply by 'winging it' or through reading the fan fiction of other writers.

And what about the characters that figure prominently in each book? Snape, Draco, Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Harry, Ron, and Hermione have matured greatly since book one, and proper characterizations should be a reflection of these changes.

I guess before I pose a few questions I should say that I am by no means a strict canon nazi. There should always be a little breathing room. After all, characterization is largely perception. But I guess what I am trying to say is that you wouldn't try and tackle Advanced Calculus with only a rudimentary knowledge of mathematics -- so why would you try and write characters you know only by name?

Thinking on things further…

Have you read every book? (Not really applicable to people still reading HBP. I realize not everyone is a graduate of the Evelyn Wood Speed Reading Institute.) If yes, what is your opinion of those that write fan fiction that haven't read (or don't plan to) read the books?

If you answered 'no' to the above, what's the reason for this? If you enjoy writing in the Potterverse, why isn't it to your benefit to do so? Or worth your while?

Should fics where writers haven't exposed themselves to all of the books be labeled as such? Shouldn't this be a warning just like non-con or incest are subject to scrutiny?

Look forward to everyone's thoughts on the matter!

ETA:tarie conducts a great poll here on the same subject matter.

--P

Comments

[ceilidh]

It really begs the question; how does one properly lend voices to characters one knows nothing about?

One cannot. Reading fanfic, watching the movies, and skimming the Lexicon is not an acceptable substitute for reading the books. I'm not saying one has to read the books five hundred times or anything, but reading them once each? Yeah.

[ceilidh]

I want to add to this that it's not like, say, in Fullmetal Alchemist where all the English versions aren't available yet, and everyone doesn't have access to the whole canon, etc etc... or a TV show that ran for 9 years or something and is still going. It's a 6 book canon with one left to go, and there's nothing really stopping you from taking your happy ass down to Wal Mart and getting a copy. Or trying to scrounge up a PDF version if you're really desperate.

[theladyfeylene.livejournal.com]

Read all the books.

I won't read fanfic by people who haven't read the books mainly because I don't see how they can write IC characters/IC world without having the proper starting point. It's one thing to have read only up to GoF or OotP and mention such, but another to say 'I saw the movies and read some of the first book, but I'm writing post-HBP fic anyway, I know what happens!'

I guess I just don't really have much faith in second-hand characterization as the basis for a fic.

[theladyfeylene.livejournal.com]

Er, meaning I read all the books, I am not demanding that everyone in fandom read all the books. I just realized how that looked without the 'I' as an object...

[biichan.livejournal.com]

I think that if people are going from movie canon only then they ought to warn people in their fics, just because of the way the movies do reflect a different canon than the books. (Which I suppose is holding fans up to a higher standard then JKR but oh well.)

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Agreed with the warnings. Readers can make their own judgment calls from there.

[ex-ella-bane358.livejournal.com]

Great questions!

I was stunned when I discovered there are readers here who haven't read the books. They can be here all they want, but I don't understand what the appeal is for them. It would be like me suddenly jumping into the Good Omens fandom -- something I know absolutely nothing about. But, now you're saying that there are people here actually writing fan fic who haven't read the books?

Well if they want to, they can go for it. I don't believe I've read any author in that situation, but you never know! A disclaimer proclaiming that fact is up to the author. I have to admit if I saw a disclaimer like that, I'd read the story out of curiosity, but after that I'd shy away from fics by people who haven't read JKR.

It's true that everyone has different interpretations of characters, but I find it hard to believe that a GOOD fan fic could ever come from a person who has never read the source material. I could be totally wrong, but it just seems unlikely.

Of course, if an author wants to write porn with placeholder names, I doubt I could tell whether the author has actually read HP or not :D

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Of course, if an author wants to write porn with placeholder names, I doubt I could tell whether the author has actually read HP or not :D

That's a step shy of original fiction then.

[xylodemon.livejournal.com]

It really begs the question; how does one properly lend voices to characters one knows nothing about?

It's not possible, I don't think. You can't gain insight on the characters from other fanfic. You can't gain character insight from the movies.

(On a random aside, one thing that kills me is when people try to 'prove their ship' with movie canon. Yes, the movies are based on the books, and yes, JKR approved most of the movie interpretation. But still. Things were changed. Lines were given to different characters. As far as that kind of thing goes, I just don't see where movie canon is applicable)

Should fics where writers haven't exposed themselves to all of the books be labeled as such? Shouldn't this be a warning just like non-con or incest are subject to scrutiny?

Possibly. I mean, I've laughed when I've seen OOC in fic warnings, or when I've seen OOC offered as a warning in fic-submission area of an archive (because if it's so OOC you feel you should warn for it I don't much see the point) but on the other hand, when I do see it, I know to keep scrolling.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

How dare you. The PoA characterisation of Harry and Draco clearly proved their great and t00by love.

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

hm, isn't this all just for fun? Do we need rules and hierarchies?

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

That would just be mass hysteria. Dogs and cats living together. :P

[schmoo999.livejournal.com]

I have read all the books in the HP universe twice except HBP, only once so far.

I am only a once in a great while writer but I tell you I would have never ever written the Lily/James fic I did without those books under my belt.

I have to think though that the HP fandom and fan fiction writers fall into the two categories that LOTR fan fiction and X-Men fan fiction does. Movieverse and book (canon for me) verse.
They have fans of each. I am going to assume that the HP writers that have never read the books have read and are fans of the movie. I don't understand how you cannot want to read the books after seeing even one movie but there you are. The are some out there like that. I don't tend to like fic in the movieverse vane. There isn't the attention to detail that people who love and know the books include in their fics.

xxx

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I don't tend to like fic in the movieverse vane. There isn't the attention to detail that people who love and know the books include in their fics.

This is my bone of contention with LotR.

How are you doing Ann? Hope everything's okay with you :-)

[bunney.livejournal.com]

Amen. I don't care how skillful the writing is, I can always spot a writer who hasn't read the books. There's always some indefinable *something* missing. Some characteristic that is just off. I just don't see how it's possible to accurately base the characters off someone else's flawed fanfic interpretation or the movies or any of the HP resources out there. I personally think it's irresponsible to not know the source material of that which you are writing.

What I understand even less is not the people who just haven't gotten around to reading the books, but those who have no intentions of *ever* reading them. Read a fic a few months ago that was actually quite good, but the author said in her notes that she'd never read the books and had no intentions of reading them. Completely ruined the fic for me. Why should I waste my time on the work of someone with that little respect for the source?

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Amen. I don't care how skillful the writing is, I can always spot a writer who hasn't read the books.

Amen to you amen, dear. *G*

[elfflame]

I've read all the books, and listened to them all on tape several times (minus HBP, of course, which I've only read once so far), and it bugs me when people straight out state they haven't read the books and don't intend to, because, as you said, there are subtle plot points that don't make it into the movies. I suppose these might be picked up from reading other people's fan-fic, but how can you be sure you really understand that plot-point unless you've read it yourself?

I am a bit of a canon nazi, but I'm willing to give leeway. It just strikes me as a bit rude to write in someone else's universe without even understanding it by reading it first.

I had a friend who fell in love with the idea of Lucius Malfoy after seeing COS. At the time, I was writing a Narcissa fic, and she wanted to do a sort of response fic for it from his viewpoint, but she hadn't read the books and didn't want to. I kept at her about it until she conceeded by telling her there were just things about the character she really couldn't get without reading the books. So she did. And she's never looked back, to be honest. She loves them now as much as I do.

I understand some people don't like certain things in the books. In fact, all of us probably have at least one scene that makes us gnash our teeth. But you can't really get the full feel of the universe by reading someone else's version of it. It doesn't work that way. And if they never give it a chance, how do they honestly know they'll hate it? At least once they've read it through once, they'd have the information, and they wouldn't have to read it again if they hated it that much.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I understand some people don't like certain things in the books. In fact, all of us probably have at least one scene that makes us gnash our teeth.

Okay, okay, I must confess, I skipped the chapters on Hagrid and Grawp. :P

[monkey-chow.livejournal.com]

I don't know - I think some people have the ability to grasp character more easily than others. I agree that you can't write a character successfully without knowing who they are, but give someone a few key phrases that outline the perimeters of a character and it isn't too hard to fill in the blanks.

By now, it's kind of redundant, I think; if you write fic then surely you've read it too. So anyone who hasn't read the books (though I can't understand why you wouldn't want to) has nonetheless gathered hundreds of different viewpoints on whatever characters they want to use.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I don't know - I think some people have the ability to grasp character more easily than others.

Oh sure, I've read all the books, and I'm still only 'okay' with Ron's voice.

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

I try not to have an obnoxious opinion about too many things on the interweb, but Penny, I just don't understand this.

Why would anyone even GOOGLE "harry potter" let alone write fanfiction if they don't read and enjoy the books? What is the idea behind it? I could understand if it was some TV series that ran for 12 years and you haven't caught every episode, or Discworld where there are what, thirtysome books now? Dude, HP has SIX books. Eight if you count the schoolbooks. Yet I have known people to do this since there were only four. Just why?

I'm reading them again now for the 34562467856765th time, and they get better and better. I'm on Chamber of Secrets. It's different than ever before, because Lucius just stuffed a OMG HORCRUX in Ginny's Transfig book.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Does a certain person who writes Severus come to mind? *G*

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Point clear. Grammar unphunky. *G*

[gmth.livejournal.com]

Heh, yeah, I've read all of 'em. I've listened to them, too, on audiobook, about a dozen times each (except HBP, of course, working on that now).

Anyway, I unwittingly friended a person just like what you're talking about here a while back. A day or two later she posted a message about how she'd never read the books and had no intention of ever doing so. There happened to be some wank going on at F-W at the time about people who enter a fandom without knowing the canon, and then a day or two after that, this person posted a message on her LJ saying it was no different than people who have never had anal sex writing slash.

And that was the end of that.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

There was never a shodow of a doubt, Gina. Your discussions are far too passionate to suggest otherwise. *G*

And there's no way you'd write Lucius with as much intensity.

[tarie.livejournal.com]

A few months ago I conducted a poll (http://www.livejournal.com/users/tarie/398997.html) about this very issue.

Disclaimer: My response is entirely about the HP fandom - where canon is readily available and SHOULD be read by all people wanting to write fanfic about Harry and the universe that JKR has created. TV shows are a different breed of fandom, yo.

As you - and several other people - are well aware, I have NO patience whatsoever about people who have not read all the books yet go on to write FF. (And don't get me started on those who JUST watch the movies and write FF - if they doand they SPECIFY that it's movie canon, okay. But if they try to pass it off as regular old canon ie book canon, big ole 'HELL NO' from me.) I don't care how good of a writer you are in terms of piecing things together and painting a picture. If you haven't read the books, there is NO WAY you can effectively create a true rendition of the characters - ESPECIALLY the ones that are most prominent in the books - Harry, Ron, Hermione, Sirius, Draco, and Snape, to name a few. An author who has the audacity to write fanfic without having read each of the main HP books available to them (I'm discrediting FBWTFT and QTA as they are 'companion' books.) are irresponsible and rather insulting.

A responsible HP fen writer is one who has read the books and does not rely on reading other fics, the lexicon (which has been known to contain erroneous information), and various other sites on the net to inform them about the Harry Potter universe.

It really rather disgusts me to know that there are people out there in the fandom right now who have not read all of the books yet insist on writing fics about major characters when they have missed out on massive character development over the course of the series because they are too lazy/disinterested/impatient/plebian/more worried about writing 39840384 fics and whoring themselves out for n00bian fangirling to stroke their ego.

[tarie.livejournal.com]

To clarify: I have read the books. Countless times.

I know my canon shit. And if I don't, my very excellent betas beat me over the head.

I don't sweat the little things, but there is no way I would write Hermione or anyone else that's prominent in the series (hell, I wouldn't even write like Theodore Nott) without having read the books. I'd feel like an ass as I'd be letting people down. They'd be wasting their time reading my work because I'd be grievously misinformed in my characterizations. Those who do that shit should be ashamed of themselves.

[anjenue.livejournal.com]

You know, I suppose it's possible to write HP fic without having read the books, same way it is possible to write porn without knowing anything about sex. But only if you feel like being laughed at.

Honestly though, writing fic without having at least a decent grasp of canon is really a ridiculous idea. You'd do better to write original fic. Oh, but that would require coming up with your own characters, wouldn't it? I really don't mean to be wanky, but writing fanfic without bothering to learn the canon is just downright lazy. I agree with you. There should be warnings on those fics.

[tarie.livejournal.com]

It IS lazy and I don't have time for slovenly people like that. There are certain writers in this fandom I refuse to read because I know they haven't read the books and I don't care if that makes me bitchy. I did my homework and they should as well.

[mamaboid.livejournal.com]

I don't know why anyone would want to write HP fanfic if they haven't read the books. They'd be almost certain to make mistakes, bad assumptions; get things wrong -- and I'd know it because I've read all the books. Running into clangers like that would take all the enjoyment out of reading it.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I don't know why anyone would want to write HP fanfic if they haven't read the books.

My thoughts exactly.

[ariadneelda.livejournal.com]

Should fics where writers haven't exposed themselves to all of the books be labeled as such?

Now that sounds like a very good idea. ;) There's no way someone who hasn't read the books to avoid big canon inconsistencies and sloppy characterizations. I've read all of them three times each (HBP once) and still there are so many details I can't remember. I'm not a canon nazi but I do like fics to be consistent to canon up to a certain extent. I can overlook minor mistakes but glaring ones... just no.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I had to reread part of GoF for the Ron/Viktor fic I wrote. I just couldn't remember certain aspects of the Yule Ball. So it goes without saying...

[bookofjude.livejournal.com]

It is like virgins writing smut!

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Don't laugh, I actually know a few :P

[jezzabe.livejournal.com]

I have read and re-read all of the books at least five times each. I could not imagine not devouring every bit of canon that comes my way, and it boggles my mind that people write fanfic without reading the books. I find it slightly bizarre.

*retreats behind shield*

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Devouring canon -- yep, yep! I'm going to re-read HBP, because I know there are details I must have missed the first time 'round.

[cmere.livejournal.com]

TRUTH. I feel like I can't write fanfic about something until I have been completely immersed in it, and I was just thinking earlier how I'm tetchy about writing post-HBP fic right now because I don't know the book well enough yet. I feel awkward always going back to check up on small details, who said what, etc, especially since my knowledge of the previous 5 is pretty vast and detailed, as I've read them so many times. I know page numbers and quotes and can find a scene in about three seconds, it's really kind of nerdy.

I can't even IMAGINE not having read the books and trying to write fanfic. Gah.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I know page numbers and quotes and can find a scene in about three seconds, it's really kind of nerdy.

I have filed this bit of information away for future reference. There'll be a quiz later. *G*

And ha ha -- icon love! ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

[netbyrd.livejournal.com]

I think it's pretty damn obvious when someone has just watched the films before writing fanfic. Hermione whomps ass and takes names without keeping her quirks, Harry grins a whole hell of a lot, and Ron is three steps away from being either a golden retriever or a baboon, depending on how much he's liked by the author.
I'm a sorta-canon nazi anyways. I don't mind weird pairings and Au fics or random porn, but I will pee on authors who give Hermione glossy, flaxen locks of hair or make Dumbledore into a retard.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

netbyrd + w/s = new favorite kink

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

It really depends on the fandom, yeah? In book fandoms, if you don't read all of the available canon, that's pretty stupid. In TV show fandoms, well, if you miss a few episodes (as long it's not one of the 'can't miss canon-defining' eps) it's okay if you've missed a few here and there.

But then there are also different aspects of what is canon. Like with HP. The majority of the fandom does not consider the movies canon. I certainly don't. Yet after the POA movie, how many fics (and fanart!) cropped up where Remus sported scars on his face and was described in a rather 'Thewlisian' manner? Cardigans? For me, the books are canon, and I'll go so far to say most of what she says in interviews. Most, because she's made plenty of errors and contradicted herself on occasion. But, for instance, she said in the latest interview that Ron's eyes are blue and in a previous one that Sirius' eyes are grey. That's canon to me.

In LOTR - there's a whole genre of "movie canon" fanfics, and others that are strictly book canon. I don't write either, but it's nice if the author indicates which canon they're using.

And with Star Wars - there are the movies and then there are the Extended Universe books (which of course totally contradict each other in several places). I know that when I read [Bad username or site: imadra_ blue @ livejournal.com]'s SW fics, she doesn't consider EU canon and has said so many times. But it can still get a bit... messy.

Warnings would be nice though, but it also depends on the fandom and what the majority expectation is. Like in HP, I expect fics to be book canon compliant, so I would want to be warned if it was movie canon. I can't really speak for other fandoms though

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Thewlisian shall never be canon! *cackles insanely*

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

err, that was supposed to be imadra_blue Stupid comment box.

[dramaphile.livejournal.com]

I've read them all (most of them at least twice), but one of my friends who reads tons of fic hates the books and refuses to read past book 2. I asked her if she'd read HBP and she was like, "you can fill me in on the new stuff, right?" *facepalm*

At least she doesn't write fic, because OMG it would be tragic. I can't imagine writing fic without knowing canon intimately. And Movie Canon so does not count.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

You could always give her false information. *G*

[mad_maudlin]

Actually, this discussion makes me want to write a top-level fanthropology post on the subject. Because the more I think about it, the more confused I get.

Personally: I have read all the novels at least two times (yes, even HBP). When I was in the X-Files fandom, however, I began to write fic after having seen only a handful of episodes (and reading a TV Guide article on the Mytharc).

[pauses as a linguist to admire the grammar of that sentance.]

However, I've read some awsome fic by authors on my flist--prillalar and icarusancalion leap to mind--for fandoms I'm not in, for canons with which I have only the vaguest familiarity, and I can still enjoy them, though perhaps not to the same extent as in-fandom readers. Partly this is because it's good writing and partly because I don't need to watch the show to know that Michael Shanks is teh sexx0rz. I also know plenty of people who have gotten into a canon through its fandom, the reverse of the general trend: it was the fan product (by which I mean fic, vids, art, whatever) that made them look twice at the source material, rather than interest for the source material inspiring the product.

And at times I have to wonder: to what extent is our fan product truly inspired by canon, and to what extent is it mediated by fanon and fan community? Other fandoms have had AUs and OCs rise to a near-canon status; in HP, I think the closest we've got is leather pants jokes, but that might be due to the decentralization of social structures in such an LJ-heavy fandom. (Wow, jargon much?) Simple knowledge of fanon and the fandom's prevalent tastes, beliefs, and expectations colors our product from the start. A fan in isolation from a fandom might create product based on the canon--I know I was writing really appallingly bad Star Trek fanfic at age ten and thought I had invented the idea--but a individual in fandom, in isolation from canon, could still create a product based on fanon. It might even be indistinguishable from product created by the canon-enabled. It's the value placed on the product by fandom that differs.

I realize that no amount of fandom and fanon can replace access to the source material; a friend who entered Smallville fandom through the slash was boggled by some of the canon characterizations, and didn't someone recently post a short "HBP according to my flist" piece? But I'm saying that, by automatically devaluing the product of canonless creators, we may be willfully ignoring the effects of fanon and the fan community on our own work.

::tears eyes away from navel::

[florahart]

I don't if it's jargon. I like the paragraph about the interplay between canon and fanon/fandom (the one that starts "And at times...") because yes. That's quite relevant.